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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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July 10, 2011 08:29:24pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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The Dead Quote Coltrane |
This is so obvious I'm sure someone's mentioned it before - but it's a recent discovery for me...
In the second half of '68, the Dead added a new section to Clementine with an interesting guitar/bass unison riff.
For example, you can hear it at 4:15 in track 11 here:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd68-10-30.sbd.sacks.1205.sbeok.shnf or at 6:10 in track 3 here:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1969-01-26.sbd.miller.109642.flac16 It's been pointed out that this riff sometimes recurs in Lesh's playing in later years - for instance, you can hear it a bit in the 4/26/72 Other One.
It turns out this is actually the bass riff to Coltrane's Greensleeves, off his Africa/Brass album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtcltPjuTkM Though Garcia sang Clementine, the music was actually composed by Phil Lesh. Since the rhythm of Clementine is similar to Coltrane band performances like Greensleeves and My Favorite Things, I would guess Coltrane was strongly in Phil's mind when he was arranging Clementine.
The Dead revered the Africa/Brass album, and Lesh and Weir cite it to this day as a seminal album for them.
Weir: "We felt at that time, when we were listening to Coltrane, that we were hardly fit to grovel at his feet. But still, we were trying to get there - our aims were the same."
Lesh: "We never heard Coltrane live after the band started, so it was the recordings we would lean on. Mainly it was Africa/Brass. Bill Kreutzmann really got off on Elvin's drum solo on 'Africa'; of the other guys, it was pretty much the whole composition and the way it all developed, the use of the horns and stuff like that. And then just for the quality of Trane's playing, 'Blues Minor' is one of my favorites." [from the book the House That Trane Built]
As for Garcia: "I've been influenced a lot by Coltrane, but I never copped his licks or sat down, listened to records and tried to play his stuff. I've been impressed with that thing of flow, and of making statements that to my ears sound like paragraphs - he'll play along stylistically with a certain kind of tone...for X amount of time - then he'll change the subject, then play along with this other personality coming out, which really impresses me."
Lesh says in his book, "I urged the other band members to listen closely to the music of John Coltrane, especially his classic quartet, in which the band would take fairly simple structures ('My Favorite Things', for example) and extend them far beyond their original length with fantastical variations, frequently based on only one chord."
When Lesh talks about using Coltrane's My Favorite Things as an example the Dead used in expanding their jams, it makes me wonder if Clementine was a song that came out of the Dead's jamming on Coltrane themes. Musically, Clementine is quite a bit simpler than most of Lesh's compositions!
Lesh has spoken often of the example of Coltrane's modal-jazz style:
"The Coltrane Quartet and the long jams they would do in one chord was a defining factor for us because it was a demonstration that this could be done. There's so much room inside this one chord. It's only one chord and you can never ever get to the bottom of it. Believe me, that was a major influence on us."
And from a newspaper article:
'“What do I have to say about ’Trane?” Lesh asks. “His music is very florid, convulsive, evocative, volcanic, and it all moves very steadily in its flow.” Coltrane also had a strong influence on the music of the Grateful Dead, who were looking for interesting ways to extend their concert “jams” without continuous repetition of the melody line. Coltrane’s modal use of the drone, sustained notes characteristic of world music from Scottish bagpipes to Indian sitars in his early ’60s compositions “Africa” and “India” allowed the jazzman to weave varied melodic and rhythmic elements in and around the drone, enabling musical improvisation without sacrificing a solid through-line.
“It was a logical extension of what we wanted to do,” Lesh says. “The improvisation over the drone note derives from ethnic music practices the world over, and helped us figure out how to play longer in new, more interesting ways.”'
Weir in particular was inspired by Coltrane's records of the early '60s, especially the playing of pianist McCoy Tyner:
"I listened to a lot of McCoy Tyner. I listened to his left hand a lot, and sort of took it from there."
"The John Coltrane record that had ‘Tunji’ on it (Coltrane) had me hugely enamored with his rhythm section - Elvin Jones and Jimmy Garrison - and the way they worked together. It was great the way they played off McCoy Tyner. Whereas a lot of guitarists cite other guitarists as primary influences, I listened to a lot of McCoy Tyner and what he had to say. It was Phil who turned me onto Coltrane.”
"I learned by trying to imitate a piano, specifically the work of McCoy Tyner in the John Coltrane Quartet. That caught my ear and lit my flame when I was 17. I just loved what he did underneath Coltrane, so I sat with it for a long time and really tried to absorb it. Of course, Jerry was very influenced by horn players, including Coltrane, but I never really explicitly thought about that relationship, because I didn’t really ever decide to pattern myself after McCoy Tyner’s piano. It just grabbed me."
Anyway, this was a long digression on a small subject. But for all the Dead's references to the Coltrane influence in interviews, it's still striking to find a direct quote in a Coltrane-soaked Dead song. And it illustrates how the Dead were composing in those days - remember that Clementine was written around the same time that Weir snatched the Spanish Jam from a riff on Miles Davis's Sketches of Spain.
Many songs of that time were born in jams - Dark Star began as an instrumental; the Other One was a riff that Weir and Kreutzmann toyed with through '67 (Weir said he was thinking of Stravinsky's Rites of Spring); the Eleven was born as an experiment with Indian time signatures; the Bahaman tune We Bid You Goodnight was first played as an extended instrumental quote inside Alligator.
So it's quite possible that when the Dead tried to jam on a Coltrane theme, out came Clementine....
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Poster:
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bkidwell |
Date:
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July 10, 2011 09:49:27pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Great post, and so far as I know you are the discoverer of the literal quotation, I've never seen that mentioned explicitly although of course Coltrane was commonly cited as an influence. I think you have really hit the nail on the head - "Clementine" is definitely in the style of the Coltrane arrangements of "My Favorite Things" and "Greensleeves." All three are based on lilting triplet rhythms (I guess I'd count 6/8 for all of them?) in a minor key with stepwise sequential melodies.
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Poster:
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clementinescaboose |
Date:
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July 10, 2011 11:37:40pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
thanks for posting this, very fascinating! i've always wondered what jazz quote that riff is from, i find the 1/26/69 Clem to be especially wonderful.
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Poster:
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AltheaRose |
Date:
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July 10, 2011 11:42:01pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Well, personally I prefer Climb Every Mountain. And why didn't Coltrane do The Lonely Goatherd? Lots of opportunities for jamming in that lay-hee-ho.
Seriously, I actually don't like My Favorite Things, though I do enjoy Coltrane's take on it as long as he's not returning to that icky main riff. I do, however, LOVE Clementine. Which goes to show that you really can find a world within a few notes ... cuz I think you're right about that! Cool post.
Thank god it didn't come from Oh What a Beautiful Morning.
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Poster:
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micah6vs8 |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 12:04:38am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Admit it, as a girl you wore out many,' A Sound of Music' albums. I'd put a link up, but like those Monty Python folks, I bet know every note by heart.
Climb every Mountain!
Search High and Low....
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Poster:
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AltheaRose |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 12:22:26am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Absolutely! Also Oliver, Fiddler on the Roof, West Side Story and My Fair Lady. Great stuff. Should be in every collection.
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Poster:
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splue |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 12:42:08am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
ZZZZZZZZZZZ o sry
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Poster:
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AltheaRose |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 02:17:50am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
No, that's from Chainsaw Massacre: The Musical. Which I don't have. Well, different strokes ... as it were.
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Poster:
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splue |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 09:02:19pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
lol
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Poster:
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WillCo |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 02:56:54am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
You mentioned Oh What A Beautiful Morning. This Ray Charles version floats my boat. It's from beyond the grave, on an album where his live vocal track survived a poor live recording with the original Basie Orchestra, so the current "legacy" Basie Orchestra re-recorded the instrumental charts after his death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI8jGtvGmIQRay Charles also recorded with Cleo Laine a hard-to-find Porgy and Bess album which is very, very good. Here's a couple of samples (Summertime and Bess You Is My Woman Now).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9R68akOBhchttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2PfBTDCpmw&;playnext=1&list=PLE9E76D5728B6567E
All 3 songs perfect for a summer day, guaranteed!
ps
AR I enjoyed your post about the Andrews sisters and Crazy Fingers. The Andrews Sisters were brilliant.
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Poster:
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Prof FX Gumby |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 03:19:24am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
First time poster here. I'm a long time fan of both the Dead and Coltrane. Nice catch! Unmistakeable and great fun to listen to.
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Poster:
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agl89 |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 05:46:47am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Good stuff there...pretty sure that Eternity has the same opening chords as Tunji
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Poster:
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utopian |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 09:10:17am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
During set II of 12-26-79, one of my favorite shows,
Phil goes into Coltranes a love supreme. I forget the exact song, ujb? anyone?
There is a Coltrane music church in San Francisco
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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 11:04:37am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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More Quotes |
I suspect many jazz quotes are lurking in later Dead jams.
For instance, some people hear Lesh quoting Brubeck's Take Five in Truckin'/Other One jams - like briefly, at 7:45 in this one:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-09-23.sbd.jeffm.2201.sbeok.shnf Phil does that line a lot (there are probably better examples, that's just the first one I could find).
edit - Found a definite Take Five in '76 - Keith leads the way in this one, and Jerry even kind of plays the melody - after 1:40 in track 18, the jam before Comes a Time:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd76-10-03.sbd-aud.cotsman.12832.sbeok.shnf (One thing that often happens in these '76 transitions is that Keith will set the rhythm for a jam; he does it for a bit in the post-Wheel jam, too.)
Or there's one very common Phil riff in '73 I've mentioned before, for instance after 6:20 in this Dark Star:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-06-24.pset2.sbd.176.hamilton.sbeok.shnf It's a similar line, sounds like it should be familiar....
edit #2 - snow&rain pointed out another Phil quote.
Footprints, off the Miles Smiles album - here's Miles playing it live on 4/12/70, opening for the Dead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z3bAytZOM4 And here's Phil quoting the bassline, after 6:25 in track 24, after Truckin':
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-04-11.sbd.jackson.smith.94377.sbeok.flac16 This post was modified by light into ashes on 2011-07-11 18:04:37
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Poster:
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bkidwell |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 11:11:23am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Some more nice finds and observations. I think the 76 jam would have to be called "take 8" rather than "take 5" though, because the phrase Keith is playing does use a lot of the same intervals and syncopated rhythm as Brubeck's comp in Take 5, but it is a longer phrase that fits into a standard 4/4 meter rather than the asymmetrical time signature that gives Take 5 its name. It's like Keith took the line and put a couple more beats in the middle to even it out to fit with the existing pulse the drummers are playing.
I hear the distinctive Phil riffs in that 73 Dark Star to be part of what I think of as a big "family" of material in 73-75 based on intricate but driving bass-heavy loops. Stronger than Dirt, Slipknot, post-Eyes, the Unbroken Chain instrumental break - all of these seem to overlap with the kind of intervals and rhythms you hear Phil playing with in that Dark Star section.
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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 02:41:22pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
"Take 8," ha....I'm very bad at telling these things!
That Phil riff in the Dark Star was actually the genesis of this post - a couple people asked me if it was from a jazz tune, so I started listening around to try to find out. Haven't found that one, but these others came up....
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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 07:06:31pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Actually, revisiting the '76 jam, I think perhaps I was thrown by Keith's rhythm - I don't think I'd call it a Take Five quote anymore. On 7/17/76 he plays pretty much the same thing coming out of Eyes, where it's kind of a twist of his normal Eyes chord pattern.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 11:23:05am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Awhile back we kicked this around ,sort of.
http://www.archive.org/post/283428/12-6-73-dark-starAs for Coltranes/free jazz influence on the band I think it is very much understated and misunderstood by the listeners.I feel it is every bit as evident in their playing and ideology as their blues,c+w and bluegrass roots,even more so than their rock influences,very rarely do the GD sound like a rock band,they rock out but very much in GD style.Let me say that these comments are in relation to the band at their creative and performing peak between 68'-74',after that things got cloudy.
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-06-26.sbd.GoodBear.80602.flac16Here are a few examples of what I consider the band displaying the Coltrane/free jazz influence in a clear and indisputable fashion.
http:www.archive.org/details/gd1973-06-26.sbd.goodbear.80602.flac16
After the Bobby McGee the band returns to the Other One and at 13:00 minutes they fall into a very pretty space with Jer and Weir locked in and some killer Phil underneath,the band then launches into a stomping,ear splitting jam,at about 15:37 you hear some very Coltrane like bleating and honking.Throughout the song and especially in the 4 minute segment between 13-17 minutes Phil,Billy and Bob reflect strongly the influence Jimmy Garrison,Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner had on their playing styles.You only need to listen to some of the more "out" style Coltrane to hear it.For me this is some of the most exhilarating GD I have ever heard.
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-06-08.sbd.miller.97268.sbeok.flac16This version of Playin' in the Band is just gorgeous,at the 12:00 minute mark Jerry leads a nice full band jam and at 13:00 minutes Jerry,Weir and Keith develop a beautiful trio with Keith playing insect jam(tiger jam)like licks which lead into a cacophonous,really out space.At approximately 14:33 some ungodly,screeching saxophone like wails join the mix and the madness continues until about 17;00 when the music returns to earth somewhat for another six minutes of brilliant playing.
For a final example I'd like to put up a kind of obvious choice in that has a free jazz saxophonist on it.
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1969-08-03.sbd.miller.30652.sbeok.flac16The Dark Star and Other One-> Caution from this show are unique and deserve more recognition and praise.The band is joined by free jazz saxophonist Charles Lloyd and electric violinist David LaFlamme from It's a Beautiful,they dive in head first to a full on free for all and create some truly inspired and singular music,a credit to the musicians involved,in that they in a live performance setting,melded what could be considered dissimilar instrumentation and styles on very demanding and challenging compositions and almost seamlessly spit out some intense killer music.For my money one the bands finest performances of the 60's.
I'm just stupid enough to need 2 revisions to fix the first mistake.
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-07-11 18:17:54
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-07-11 18:18:12
This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-07-11 18:23:05
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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 12:22:59pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Good examples!
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Poster:
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bkidwell |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 12:52:18pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Some more great links and discussion! I'm listening to that 8/3/69 right now and I can't believe I'd missed this one. This is definitely a really amazing and unique jam!
This is clearly a major tape to have come into circulation subsequent to my printed references that I often use to guide my listening, my Deadbase doesn't mention a guest on this night and there is no review in the Taper's Compendium.
I am so excited right now, this is some really impressive stuff I was not aware of previously. EDIT: Some really hilarious quotations in the post-Caution jam. Can't place all of them on first hearing, but "Stars and Stripes Forever" is really prominent.
This post was modified by bkidwell on 2011-07-11 19:52:18
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Poster:
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light into ashes |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 12:26:46pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
The tape only surfaced in the last 10 years, so it's not mentioned in older printed references (or anything in print, really).
The mix goes downhill in Caution, unfortunately, but it kind of suits the music! This is kind of a precursor to the "horns tour" of Sept '73, though the guests are given more far-out stuff to work with here.
Here's a blogpost about Charles Lloyd and his relations with the Dead:
http://lostlivedead.blogspot.com/2009/12/guest-flute-players-with-grateful-dead.html
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Poster:
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bkidwell |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 01:19:28pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Thanks, somehow I had missed that post while reading through the lostlivedead site. (Edit: thought this was on your blog at first LIA, I see now it isn't.) 8/3/69 is really interesting and worthy of a lot of discussion, I will need to do some more listening, but I think it might be the most interesting jam with guest musicians in the band's history. Things definitely do go downhill late in Caution, mixwise and in terms of the jam, I think the feedback/space was perhaps not to the guest musicians taste, because they seem to respond with a lot of different quotations or allusions that don't really gel. It would be interesting to try to identify all of them, because there seem to be a lot. Prior to that, though, the jamming is really impressive on all fronts.
This post was modified by bkidwell on 2011-07-11 20:19:28
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Poster:
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unclejohn52 |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 11:48:54am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-06-08.sbd.miller.97268.sbeok.flac16This version of Playin' in the Band is just gorgeous,at the 12:00 minute mark Jerry leads a nice full band jam and at 13:00 minutes Jerry,Weir and Keith develop a beautiful trio with Keith playing insect jam(tiger jam)like licks which lead into a cacophonous,really out space.At approximately 14:33 some ungodly,screeching saxophone like wails join the mix and the madness continues until about 17;00 when the music returns to earth..."
Wow... I hadn't heard this in a while... truly amazing. Thank you. This piece really shows how important Keith was for it to really take off, he's transcendent. The wailing sound - can we assume that's Phil on feedback? or Bobby? Also, another instance where the single drummer sounds/works better than two.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 08:41:05pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
UJ52,this one hit you like it does me,I find Keith's playing to be integral and just right in the pocket.It's funny you mentioned the wailing sound because the first time I listened I had to do a few playbacks to figure out who was doing what,and arrive at the conclusion that Phil is one hell of a feedback saxophonist.I was wondering if it was Ned Lagin or Keith on some odd keyboard,but I settled on Phil because I don't hear any "normal" bass while the wailing is going on,but it is just an educated guess.
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Poster:
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unclejohn52 |
Date:
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July 12, 2011 05:55:11am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Funny, I kind of settled on Phil too, especially as he enjoys taking a lead in making weird sounds, and there's no bass present. On the other hand, Weir can make weirdness his own too (usually on slide), just seems unlikely in this instance - it's too high up in the mix.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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July 12, 2011 10:41:39am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
It seems to be Phil because at some point everyone else can be accounted for,you can hear Weir mirroring Jerry,Keith playing fills on the piano,but I don't hear Phil's bass anywhere,but I would not say with any certainty that it's Phil.
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Poster:
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bkidwell |
Date:
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July 12, 2011 01:41:30pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
I think throughout 73-74, when you hear something that sounds like a cross between trombone, bagpipes, and a flock of geese, it is almost always Phil. I'm not too much of a scholar of the band members' gear, but Phil clearly had an absolutely insane setup during that era that let him unleash truly sick sounds.
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Poster:
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scotch_glass |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 06:34:16pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Great post, as always. I used to listen to old Coltrane records when I was a kid and have always had a deep appreciation for his work. HIs influences on the Dead are definitely noticeable, but I will have to spend a lot of time listening to the examples in this post to enjoy many I didnt know about.
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Poster:
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jerlouvis |
Date:
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July 11, 2011 08:29:41pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane |
Once again LIA,a great idea for a thread backed by interesting information and really good song choices to bring home your points.Bkidwell your analytical observations are on another level yet understandable,and very thought provoking.It is nice to be prodded to look at the music in a different way.
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